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:	post by ShadowSD at 2012-11-20 20:09:05

Boozegood said	[orig][quote]
What does any of that even mean? A pity case? Who cares.

Painting themselves as the victim while being the bigger dog in the fight, even when they start the conflict like they did this time, is how they have maintained as much unconditional support among the public here for as long as they have, even though that support is slowly slipping over time.

Thing is, it hasn't slipped enough yet to become a minority opinion. Among younger voters it has, among voters who read various news sources online it has, among voters who always opposed the Iraq War on the libertarian right and progressive/center left it has, but you look at the overall numbers and the sympathies are still illogically lopsided against Israel compared to the events, even though it's strongest among a diminishing group of older white Republican voters who aren't exactly the cutting edge of where this country is going in terms of demographics. Still that aside, it's still a majority of Americans who sympathize with Israel even when given the option of sympathizing with both or neither group: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/...aeli-attacks-in-gaza-are-justified/

Part of that misconception is shit coverage - like when I said before the AP did a good job in one article highlighting that an Israeli killing of a Palestinian leader started the latest round of fighting, I spoke too soon in saying that was a trend; all the televised coverage and articles since then fail to acknowledge the chronology of events (even that CNN article I just linked), so people think the Palestinians started with the rockets without provocation and then were retaliated against. Of course Israel is the sympathetic one in that case, and the Palestinians look batshit crazy - too bad it's not what actually happened.

And so you have the sign, to try and break those misconceptions of sympathy in a few words.

Boozegood said	[orig][quote]
The point is that Palestine shouldn't cry every-time Israel retaliates against one of their attacks.

I think that's an oversimplification. There are fighters on both sides who fight, and civilians on both sides (way more of them than there are fighters) who always cry when attacked, and deservedly so, because whether it's a Palestinian rocket or a Israeli bomb coming at you from the sky - you're a civilian about to die who can't do shit to put up a fight against the armament about to blow your face to shreds in a second and a half, or living under that fear.

In the case of Palestine in particular, the oversimplification of lumping in everyone together as crybabies is especially problematic because they don't actually have a sovereign country; in the case of Israel, you can at least argue those civilians had a right to vote and petition their government to use its sovereign powers and resources in a more peaceful way, but if your a Palestinian, all you can do is vote for a powerless government that will be assassinated - you're pretty much fucked on that front.

This article explains it perfectly in the best first-person account I've read about this:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/news...-bombing-in-gaza-city.html#comments

Boozegood said	[orig][quote]
If you are hiding amongst civilians; expect some civilians to die when you are attacked.

True.

Speaking of which, 3 dead Israelis and 100 dead Palestinians over the week.

I'd suggest that's a matter of armaments, not a lack of fighting spirit.

Boozegood said	[orig][quote]
This sign-holder should be doing something productive. He could learn a thing or two from Finland; all of Palestine could.

True... but again, Finland has a country. From your own link:

"Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty. Finland ceded 11% of its pre-war territory and 30% of its economic assets to the Soviet Union.[31] Soviet losses were heavy, and the country's international reputation suffered.[32] Soviet forces did not accomplish their objective of the total conquest of Finland,[33][need quotation to verify] but did gain substantial territory along Lake Ladoga, providing a buffer for Leningrad, and territory in Northern Finland. The Finns, however, retained their sovereignty and enhanced their international reputation."

That last sentence is key, which is why it's the conclusion sentence to the paragraph.

You can't rally around the key goal of retaining sovereignty if you don't have it in the first place.

The story with Israel/Palestine right now begins where the Finland story would have ended in defeat that they never experienced; with the enemy ALREADY occupying all their land.

This is an important point though because it raises one of the problems of expecting any total peace in that area before the Palestinians have their own sovereign country; without a recognized government or resources, it's impossible for the Palestinians leadership to guarantee security for anyone, because they don't have the power to enforce anything among their own populace.

Boozegood said	[orig][quote]
Also it is absolutely mind boggling that people can't understand that if Hamas had the capabilities of Israel; Israel and all the civilians there-in would be wiped off the face of the earth.

If they got them instantaneously going from no weapons to nukes overnight, yeah, maybe as a last resort they would - but no one goes from zero to sixty overnight when it comes to weaponry. Had Palestinians been closer to parity with Israel in arms over all the years, there wouldn't have been the desperation and resentment to create such a sentiment. The only people to use a nuclear bomb in the history of the world aren't Arabs, FWIW.

Boozegood said	[orig][quote]
Liberals/The Left Wing/Whatever you want to call them will not believe that we are at war/have an enemy until someone is in their bedroom slitting their throat with a Shamshir.

That argument is outdated by the facts; the left in America is why we killed Bin Laden and most senior Al Qaeda instead of dicking around invading countries and creating more terrorists than we can kill according to our intelligence estimates under the previous admin. It's a no contest who has been more successful killing our enemies and who has been better at just getting our guys killed when it comes to the two sides of the political spectrum over the last ten years.

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