http://www.capecodtoday.com/news/CWN/2012/...ster-man-charged-in-brewster-church

Hahahaha, I know this kid. His life could definitely be described as, "When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong".

OP definitely fronted a band singing a tune entitled (and with the only lyrics consisting of) "I RAPE BITCHES" at the age of 14, and felt bad 'cause he couldn't accurately play Deicide double bass (before we told him what triggers were).

Fucking moron.

Burning churches in America kinda misses the point - there's little religious stranglehold in these parts. What was he trying to prove? That he hates the 40 little old ladies that like to attend masses on the cape?

That kid is going to fare poorly in prison.

Oh, also this:

Errrrmmmm... not sure aboot that part. It won't create quite the same furor it did in Norway, granted (especially since the building is probably a prefab piece of shit with yellow vinyl siding).

Fucking LOLZ at the demonically bro-tacular pics of this dude. Ain't nuthin' but a 666 thang, dawg?

(oh, and I finally got around to browsing RttP while pooping. Is it always this much better?)

It's like RTTP and pooping were made for each other. Like peanut butter and... er... chocolate.

Then spend some time reading about the political and religions climate in Norway at that time, and compare it to where we live today. I'm not going to get all gay and history lesson on you, but it wouldn't hurt you to read about it a little.

Can religion be stifling here? A little. But it's far from dictating our law and culture anymore.

By "at that time", you mean, like, 1020 AD, right? Cause if you're talking about the hyper-oppressive religious culture in Norway in the early 1990's, you're kind of fucking retarded.

Alex, tonight. COME HANG WITH US

What's the plan?

Actually, I think I was speaking of political and historic reasons behind the norwegian church burnings given by the very man who did them, vs the climate on Cape Cod that is both historically, politically, and culturally nothing similar.

But if you'd like to call me fucking retarded, I can live with that easily.

Meanwhile I don't think there's any Christian slighting of Viking history going on down on the cape cod, retard.

Also, the "retard" was just out of hand. I don't think you're retarded, just because you're not as smart as I am.

beers, loud music, dicks... what's your email I'll give you my numba khed

He'll get back to you. I've got a guess he's raping wiki to make some stupid argument about the religious climate of the 1980's in Norway.

I'm home sick. Hopefully he has such a good excuse for such pedantry.

;)

Actually, you were implying that the local religious "stranglehold" could be viewed objectively as justification/motivation for Varg's burnings, when in fact this "stranglehold" was basically a personal fantasy of re-fighting a religious war lost a thousand years earlier. How do you know Adam Finnegan's motives aren't so noble?

Please go ahead and share some examples (not counting statements from convicted Norwegian church-burners) of the insufferable stifling of non-Christians in Norway 20 years ago, since you're obviously well-read on the subject.

It's like I'm in your head, isn't it...

You concluded and asked the same exact question I did... what was the dumbass's motive to burn a church on Cape Cod? Typically these things are motivated when one religion is dominant in the government and culture (as in Norway). Not really how things work in the US.

Now go drink with your friends. Enjoy your evening. Refrain from calling me a retard. I'm already ill, out of weed, and don't feel like being angry as well.

No I'm not. I fucking hate black metal. I thought most everyone here knew that?

LOL - the comments on the Herald story are predictably hysterical.







Oh, Herald. You so crazy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Norway

Is it really hard to understand why a dumb kid in a predominantly Christian society would be a little more likely to burn a church than a dumb kid on cape cod, where there's a different type of church or non-secular whatever on every corner?

"At numerous times in history, Norway sent more missionaries per capita than any other country. This changed considerably from the 1960s. Today, only 12% of the population attend church services each month.[2] Citizens born in Norway to one or two Norwegian parents are automatically added to the list of Protestant Christians in Norway, and are required to "sign out" of the church. There are two categories kept in the church's books, "medlemmer" (members) and "tilhørige" (belonging to [the State church]). Members technically have to be baptised, whereas "tilhørige" are to be taken out of the books if not baptised by the age of 18. Norwegian citizens' tax funds are given to the Protestant Church until one registers as a member of another religious group, or as a member of the Humanist association.[3]

In 1993, there were 4,981 churches and chapels in Norway"

The 1990's were a bit different, as far as religion worldwide. Here too, actually.

But at the time, it was about as understandable for a kid in Norway to burn a church as it was for them to kill their buddy for talking shit about them.

One could be seen as a misguided statement. The other seems like a moron trying to impress... well that's the part I'm trying to figure?

FWIW (and not that locale has the slightest bit to do with this), but Finnz was originally from Grafton, not the Cape (and until relatively recently he was living in NYC, 'cause he was playing drums in Merauder) (yes, that Merauder).

(Wonder what those dudes would think of this, haha.)

Master Burner?

Wigger.

No I didn't, I asked how the motive of an anti-Christian churchburner in current day Cape Cod is drastically different from that of a Norwegian 20 years ago, after you implied repeatedly that Norwegian Christianity had a "stranglehold" on that society at that time and that the oppressive religious culture there made these acts more logical or meaningful.

And you told people to go read up on it, and predicted I would "rape Wiki" for information. Now, I don't see anyone in this thread quoting Wikipedia but you. Nor do I see any recommended articles, news stories, or books that you think would help us expand our understanding of the religious and political climate of Norway in the 1990's.

Since you are keeping your non-Wiki sources secret, I'll mention one: I recommend that anyone who is interested in the motives of the Norwegian Black Metal churchburners read Lords of Chaos, imperfect as it may be. Within you will not find any evidence of a severe cultural stranglehold by the church, nor particularly oppressive religious upbringings for ANY of the Black Metallers included. Indeed, when it comes to motive, Moynihan and Søderlind came up with so little beyond the Metal subculture, youthful rebellion, and one-ups-manship within the Helvete/DSP clique that they speculated that the burnings were a resurgence of ancient blood memories, echoing the Oskorei, Odin's mythical ride over Nordland (hey, I said it was imperfect). In short, they did not find any real religious oppression in the environment that might provoke such extreme acts.

Further, despite raping Wiki for some statistics, you have not translated these into their real world significance. If you wanted to discuss the real meaning of these statistics, you might have looked a little further down the page at the time-based chart of Norwegian church attendance included on the Wikipedia page you yourself cited.

Percent attending religious services at least once a month:
1982: 15.4%
1990: 12.7%
1996: 12.5%
2005: 10.8%

Clearly the major drop-off in Norwegian church attendance occurred some time before 1982, I wonder if we can find out when. Oh yes, "One need not go further back than the beginning of the 1900s to find a much more religious atmosphere. At numerous times in history, Norway sent more missionaries per capita than any other country. This changed considerably from the 1960s." Much of which you quoted yourself.

Now that's a monthly statistic for Norway... These 2006 Gallup results from a survey in the U.S. signify how many attend church "weekly/almost weekly", so the comparison is not direct, but it is apt.

Church Attendance Lowest in New England, Highest in South





We do have some apples and oranges here which I will freely admit.

Norway:
Had an official state religion in the 1990's (recently ended)
Taxes go to support the state church
Has a very high number of people identified demographically as Christian (although these large numbers stem in part from the fact that children are automatically registered as members)
Most Christians in Norway belong to the Lutheran Church of Norway

The U.S./Massachusetts/Cape Cod:
Does not have an official religion and clear evidence of religious diversity is abundant
Is generally in accordance with the 1st Amendment's prohibition of combining church with state
BUT: Has a (self-described) 31% WEEKLY attendance rate at churches (assuming the Cape is consistent with the state as a whole)
AND is part of a political system which includes states like Alabama, Louisiana, and South Carolina whose churchgoing rates are about 58% weekly.


You COULD make a case that the official demographic statistics and use of tax money to support the Norwegian church make for a more oppressive/"stranglehold" religious climate. It would not be a very good case though. On the basis of attendance, it could be argued that Christianity is 2 and a half times as important to the residents of Massachusetts these days as it was to Norwegians 20 years ago. That argument is shallow too, but certainly more indicative of religious climate than membership numbers.

Basically you need to spend some time reading about the political and religious climate in Norway at the time.

I mean, I'm not gonna get all gay and history lesson on you, but...

Das Finnz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if this is what a " Devil worshiper" looks like then i dont want to satan anymore.

So you never got to go out and have fun with your buddies, eh? Sorry to hear that.

You're putting words in my mouth, and then arguing against them. You don't really need me here for that, but please - allow me to correct you:

The term "stranglehold" was never used, or inferred, towards Norway. What I did imply was that typically an act like this comes as a rebellion against being forced into or dominated by a single religion that opposes your views.

I even posted those stats on Norway's dominant Christian status and forcing their citizens by default into Christianity at the time. Yet you still want to argue with me that a person in the US, where there is NO default religion, has the same circumstance and motivation as a person 20 years ago in Norway?

I admit - I know shit about Varg, black metal, and faggots like your friend that burned down the church. But having spent 7 years in a parochial school, I DO have a bit of knowledge about world religion, and the assimilation of Norway into Christianity.

So there's my point. In it's entirety. If you still feel the need to argue or put words in my mouth ... well, you're an idiot then, because I think I explained it pretty well this time.

Oh, and church attendance figures don't really display the religious OPTIONS allowed to a countries citizens, does it? So it doesn't really say anything about how predominant a faith is in a particular country.

Sorry, man. Didn't mean to upset you. Clearly this is a case of a person into religion and history arguing against a guy into black metal and the church-burnings that went on. And in that regard you're right, I probably mispoke as to their motivations. However in general my point stands.

Sounds like he's not insisting he won anything.

In fact, sounds like two stubborn idiots arguing two completely different points to me.

Look, if you don't understand that some of the most secular nations in the world, with the highest proportion of NON-believers (i.e. atheists and agnostics) in their midst, happen to have old but politically impotent religious establishments with inflated membership statistics, then I think you need to reconsider the value of parochial school education. Your posted statistics don't illustrate Christian dominance in any area other than statistics. And they're matched (in the same damn Wikipedia article!) with more relevant statistics about how important the church is to most Norwegians (i.e. not very important at all).

If the fact that Norway isn't littered with as many diverse denominations of Christianity as the U.S. means that its citizens have been denied religious options, I think you should at least be able to cite a single example of the state of Norway suppressing a religion or denomination. If I recall correctly, it was a brutal stabbing death, NOT the government which caused the shut down of the Satanic metal shop in Oslo which formed for awhile the social core of the Norwegian Black Metal scene. Likewise Neopaganism and all manner of Christian offshoots have been tolerated in Norway, they just haven't flourished as much as agnosticism and atheism.

If you think that a modest portion of tax revenue going to the state church represented someone being "dominated" by Christianity (rather than being simply an objectionable national fiscal decision), then you should probably read the rest of the sentence you cited from Wikipedia, which points out that citizens could simply join another religion or a Humanist association, to which those tax monies would then be re-directed. In light of recent "faith-based initiatives", we're in a similar boat in the U.S. now anyway.

Granting that two decades can be a long time and see great changes occur, doesn't it seem a bit of a stretch to suggest that the church in Norway was super powerful in the 1990's, yet was almost unanimously stripped of its official status by parliament earlier this year?

I'm really not particularly passionate about Norway's religious and political climate; however I'm certainly not coming to the table ignorant of history or world cultures. I do appreciate that you've been relatively diplomatic, despite my own meager efforts in that department... But I really think you would be better off doing a little research into a subject before suggesting that others need to "read up". Hell, you may even want to read the full Wikipedia articles you claim support your views!

You might also want to reconsider the idea that 7 years of parochial school is key to understanding world cultures and global religion... Especially if it left you with the idea that the 1990's were a relevant period in the assimilation of Norway into Christianity. That assimilation happened a thousand years earlier and Christianity has receded, as in most Northern European nations, in the Industrial age and to the greatest degree since WWII.

We HAVE been arguing to a certain degree at cross purposes, and maybe I've overemphasized the word "stranglehold". However, a large part of what you're saying is truly untenable. While obviously the lack of official religion and the precepts of the 1st amendment have been a great boon for us non-Christians in the U.S., there's simply no factual way to claim that Norway's culture is more religious than that in the U.S. (nor has it been in recent decades). ANY Modern World Religion 101 class would make quite clear: the established power structure of Christianity in Northern Europe and especially the Scandinavian countries, has been on the wane for many decades and the local populations have increasingly defined themselves as non-religious. The church remains as a historical and cultural vestige, a distant great-grandfather who is kept on the public dole out of tradition, not public interest. By contrast, evangelical Christianity in the U.S. has created a boom and bust cycle of religious prominence in our political life, and the role of religion in the public sphere advances and recedes over time.

For what it's worth, here's why I think Varg's church burnings were "better", though I wouldn't go so far as to say "justified":
Aesthetics (i.e. he didn't look like a Juggalo, and the old architecture of the churches must have looked pretty splendid ablaze, as they did after the fact. See: Aske)
Media coverage (which stemmed from the age/history of the churches and the relatively small population of Norway)

Those are the biggest differences I see. Did it prove anything? I doubt it. Dude on the Cape would have "proved" just as much if it weren't for the fact that the specific church had no significant history and if church burnings weren't old hat in the U.S. since the civil rights movement days. If there's no racial motive and no one dies in the fire, it's just not a national media event here.

I think I understand why they didn't bring you drinking last night. ;)

I keeed, I keeeed.

I feel like you and me would end up drunkenly arguing for hours if we met. It's all good. I DO think you both ran with "stranglehold", and I admit it was stupid of me. I've been retarded sick for 2 weeks. Having nightly migraines. You'll not as the posts get later, I get a bit testier.

HeadbangingMan is a jew. Don't listen to him unless it's about money.

Why doesn't Aril log in lately?

This thread puttered out half a page ago.

Yeah, it happens; hopefully herbal relief is not too far in your future. I'm cool with agreeing to disagree.

Though I will have you know that if my belated Thanksgiving dinner with the 'rents last night had not run long, my presence at the drink-and-hang would have been...

...puts on sunglasses...

just gravy.

YYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

Post pictures of this dude. I don't have facebook.